Podcast: Mark Zachos & The Future of Onboard Diagnostics In Cars (Interview)

In this episode, we chat with Mark Zachos - President of DG Technologies and Automotive Industry expert on all things Onboarding Diagnostics (OBD) - about the evolution of OBD and what the future holds with the EV revolution.

This podcast is sponsored by SAE International. 

Episode Notes

This episode is part of a series brought to you by SAE International to explore the leading edge of mobility with the support of experts from industry & academia. Other episodes in this series include Episode 203, where we talked about the current state of OBD in the automation industry and what the future might look like.

You can learn more about the OBD-EU symposium we discussed HERE. 

Enjoyed listening to Mark? Want to hear more from him? Checkout his links below:

• Mark’s LinkedIn

Become a founding reader of our newsletter: http://read.thenextbyte.com/

Transcript

Hey friends, welcome back to the Next Byte podcast. Today's a pretty special episode. We're doing an interview with Mark Zachos. He's an expert in the vehicle communication technologies field and expert in onboard diagnostics.

What's up friends, this is the NextByte podcast where one gentleman and one scholar explore the secret sauce behind cool tech and make it easy to understand.

Daniel: Mark, we're happy to have you on the pod. Could you give everyone maybe a 30 second explainer of your expertise, your claim to fame, if you will?

Mark: Hey everybody, yeah, Mark Z here, coming from Detroit, Michigan, live from Detroit, Michigan. And being in Detroit, my background is automotive. I've worked in the auto industry since I got out of college. And particularly working in software development, embedded software, we call it firmware, and the onboard diagnostic world. So, every car, every truck, every vehicle has that connector underneath your dashboard there, that 16-pin connector, we call it the OBD-2 connector. So, I work on technology with that, communications between the vehicle and what the technician or the mechanic would learn from talking through that, what we call a scan tool connection.

Daniel: Gotcha.

Farbod: You know, Mark, when I was looking through your experiences, one thing that really stood out to me was how shortly after getting out of college, like you're saying, you went into firmware, but then you really stuck with the OBD path. What was it about OBD that really stood out to you and made you wanna dedicate so much of your time and pretty much your entire career to it?

Mark: Hey, that's an interesting question. It was just by chance, frankly, I did have a boss that wanted to poke me in that direction. So, I thank him, his name was Bill Floyd. And I think part of the story though leads to Europe because one of the things that he had sent me over to Germany to do is to work with BMW on, they were kinda in the leading role. BMW is pretty well known as a technology leader in not just onboard diagnostics, but just about everything on a car. And so, I had the good fortune as a young engineer to go over to Munich and meet some really good friends there and learn about that technology. So that's honestly, that's the spark that really kept burning. And then coming back to Detroit, I think we saw that, you know, the group I was working in, the future there that this was gonna really grow and catch on and then, you know, internally. It's like, yeah, that sounds like a there was a future there as well. So, I started a business. I don't know if you knew that after.

Fabod: He did, yeah.

Mark: Yeah, so I kind of bailed out in the last, there was another recession going on and the writing was on the wall then. And so, it's like, hey, I'll start a business. I start up in my basement and here we are.

Daniel: Mark, a question for you on the business in particular. Our audience is comprised of a lot of engineers, Farbod and I included, right, who feel like we've got maybe some special skills in a certain space. How did you translate your engineering know-how into a business that can make money? Is there anything you can share around how you landed clients? Was it building a strong network through an industry group or was it knocking doors? How did you turn your engineering know-how into something that has not been a viable business for a number of decades?

Mark: It might not be translatable into the year 2024. That was before LinkedIn and all of that existed, eh? So, the way that actually, to answer your question, the way that really sprouted was through training, right? So, my background, so besides engineering, besides running a company, besides doing a lot of work, volunteer work for SAE, I also teach. So, I'm a professor down at, used to be at University of Michigan, now I'm at University of Detroit, Detroit Mercy Colleges in downtown Detroit. And, with that understanding of the technology and being part of SAE, actually, there's all these technical standards that we work on, right? So, I help write, I had a small part anyway of the OBD-2 technical standard for SAE. And learning all about that and be able to project that outward to people that want to learn about it because it was a, you know, it's a growing industry. And offering my services for training purposes, that's how I really got started. Actually, one of my first clients was a friend of mine, worked at Intel. And he said, yeah, come on out to Intel, come on out to the West Coast and I'll help you get started in. We've got a training seminar. I said, wait a minute, you guys are Intel. You know all of this. Mark, no, trust me. You know a lot more than any of our engineers about this corner, the technology, right? Right. So that's how we got started.

Farbod: Now when it comes to the OBD port, right, it's evolved, I think, two times mainly. But in the years that you've been involved with it, what are some of the main changes that you've seen? Because I think originally the goal was just for emissions testing, right? And now Daniel and I did a quick walkthrough down memory lane and we saw how there was kind of every manufacturer had their own take on it. Then OBD2 became the standard. And then we're seeing all these little technology companies making their own IoT products out of it that get more than just emissions data out of it. You're looking at general diagnostic tools, but then you have fleet tracking and driver behavior for insurance companies. Just kind of curious what you've seen this trend look like and what you think the future might look like for this.

Mark: Some of the things that you refer to are outcomes of the technical requirements that we first got, first deployed into the SAE standard. So, there's a standard a couple numbers I'll throw them out here for you the actual pin out the 16-pin connector. It's under your dash is SAE J 1962 and that pin that just you know tells you where power ground is there's actually multiple communication protocols that are incorporated into that connector due to the fact that when we first started in the standardization effort back in late mid-1990s. So, you know, it's a long time ago. So, in there, we couldn't agree. The car companies, GM had their own, Toyota had, everybody had their own protocols. So, a technical standard, honestly, is we call it the lowest common denominator. And maybe that sounds kind of bad, but it's what everybody can agree to or not disagree to. Maybe that's even a better way. So, there are certain things the protocols, we all incorporated into that connector the best we could. But what was all common was the software in the back of that. So, you have to communicate what's called the PIDs, parameter identifiers, DTCs, diagnostic trouble codes, and there's service codes or service modes. And those are all incorporated into a different standard, J1979. So that backstory stays and grows. 1979, the software grows. The pinout actually is evolving as well. So today we're at a point with the communication protocols on the connector. We're at the point where we've evolved from these multiple protocols in the early days to something that's called CAN, Controller Area Network. So, it's a basically it's a byte level protocol that's not really high speed, but it does the job. And the next generation that we're working on now, industry is working on it as well as the technical standards groups at SAE are working on adding Ethernet, right? So why do we need that Ethernet protocol? The answer is lots of data, lots of things coming on and off the vehicle. It's not necessarily diagnostic trouble codes coming off, but going in is we want to reprogram, right? You've heard something called reflash. So basically, we want to download updates into the car, either through that connector or also its operational now over the air. Right? If you guys drive a Tesla, you know what I mean. I got a new Chevy E-Blazer a couple weeks ago. It has ethernet on it and then also has over-the-air programming capability too. So anyway, the speed is one thing, adding Ethernet is another, and then the message set, that's evolving a little bit further because of emissions, there's more requirements coming out of the regulators, especially in California. California Air Resources Board, they want more data, more information, more requirements for the, for maintaining emission system operational. I mean, that's the big thing, the degradation of the onboard system as you're driving the vehicle through time, through years. If the system degrades, that's where the emissions really come from. It's not when the car sold or if it's in compliance and gets out of compliance because you've got a bad fuel injector, you've got something happening on the car. So, if you fix it, you get it back in compliance, your air gets cleaner.

Farbod: Right. One of the things on the topic of emissions that comes to mind, a controversy involving OBD that the average person might be aware of, was the whole Volkswagen diesel gate debacle. I'm curious, how did that impact you and the other folks in the industry and how did standards change as a result if there were any changes?

Mark: They were. Yeah, there was a big deal. So, a couple thoughts come to mind. One of the things is that the big fines, you know, the end of the story there is billions with a B in fines that those companies had to pay to the regulators. So, California, you know, they got some money now and they're able to do things with it. What are they investing that money in? Probably is new emission test systems in the state. They're hiring people, qualified engineers now that know a lot of the space. They're hiring consultants. And then what they're doing is they're actually restraining more the regulatory requirements in the past. I think it was more practical for CARB to let the SAE be their guide in terms of the technology and what we want, how it to work. We write the big regulations and let the engineers engineer it and do some implementation. Nowadays, what I see is that internal to the regulators, their engineers are actually writing more requirements. So, I think that's because they have more engineers, probably. There's the EV side.

Daniel: Mark, a question for you, because you keep mentioning regulation. I was wondering if you could help me roughly attribute how much of the development you see in the OBD space can be attributed to regulatory pressure versus innovation. It's kind of, it's hard to tell like, is the vast majority of the developments we're seeing trying to keep up with strict regulations from certain regulatory bodies, or is the vast majority of it people wanting to do new cool things and add new features?

Mark: The former, so it's the big drive from just keeping up with the regulators, keeping in front of what their requirements are and reflecting into where those requirements might go. So here in Detroit, we're automotive town. We're still, after all these years, we're still automotive town. You might have heard there was, I don't know, last month there was this kind of election thing and there's somebody new moving into the White House there in DC. And all that's gonna change the regulatory environment. So, there's really huge, so there's a huge investment into EVs and that support also came from, again, going back to the fines or the money out of California or money out of Washington to help the automotive industry transition into that huge investment into electric vehicles. Because I mean, that's the future. BMW is doing it, right? This is the future. The technology, we need to be there with those technical innovations that are not, let's say, practical to do with an internal combustion engine. You don't have that huge battery. You don't have that battery powering things all the time, right? So that over the year update that happens while you're sleeping in your garage, your car is in there, it's connected, and you don't have to worry about your battery going dead as it's doing its thing for a couple hours with the cloud back in and reflashing, you know, the software that's on board that computer system. So, and then with all of that, you've got an ADOT, you have the cameras and the radars and automated driving, you need that power plant that basically is that EV. And then the cost really, right now the investment, return on investment, we haven't gotten there yet in the industry, but the cost of actually building, I mean, it's an electric motor, right? So just a bunch of windings thing that turns around, right, some bearings. I mean, it's more complicated than that, the chemistry and the battery. But, you know, there's huge cost reduction, part reduction, and the assembly time is cut quite a bit. So, the actual production cost, when you get all the return of your investment out of it becomes a great future. So, we got to get there. And it's not gonna be easy with the new administration gonna say, no, hold off, we're going back to ICE.

Farbod: In terms of like the evolution of OBD for EVs, what does that even look like? Because you know, so many of the diagnostic codes that the average driver currently fears, you know, like your check engine light, oil, things like that are just not applicable anymore to EVs.

Daniel: Well, that's on the road, like check engine light, there's not an engine.

Farbod: That's what I'm saying, right? So, what's going to happen now? Is there going to be two different, like vastly different protocols that both mechanics have to be aware of and manufacturers have to support? Are we going to move to a more unified one that just applies differently depending on, you know, what kind of platform you're on? What does that future look like?

Mark: It starts with, again, regulation, whether it's using can communication or this new ethernet requirement. The regulation, believe it or not, coming out of California, does require a check engine, you know, something there, right, to inform the driver. So, it's not the check engine anymore, but it's something else. And where our regulatory friends are going with that for EVs is they want to be sure that the consumer has confidence and shifting, letting go of their gasoline and diesel-powered rides and shifting consumers over to an EV, they want to make sure that the batteries are charged and that range anxiety is mitigated. And that when you pull up to a charger, a public charger, you plug that SAE Standard J3400 connector into that vehicle, you're getting all the charges that you can as fast as you can. And then is it the problem with the car that's not taking the charge or the car that's not charging because the systems are malfunctioning? Or is it that charger, most likely it is, the charger there in the parking lot that you pulled up to that's malfunctioning? So, most of the diagnostic trouble codes have to do with the battery pack and the charging system and this sort of thing. However, there's a lot more complicated, there's a lot more complication behind that. Because any time you have this type of regulation, when you certify your car to go on sale, let's say, sell it in California or anywhere in a territory, you have a firmware software set, right? Here's my software bill of materials. Here's everything that goes into that car, and that is maintained by the regulator. So, if you tweak the software a little bit, so you might call it tuning. We call it hacking, and the regulators say, big fines, can't do that, right? And whether the I see or an EV.

Farbod: Well, so many of these EVs are software defined, right? Like they keep pushing updates, they keep making these tweaks. And one of the things I was thinking about is again, when Daniel and I were trying to dig up the history, we saw that in the past, there was a lot of resistance for manufacturers towards moving into something that is standardized across the board. Do you see that now with the big EV manufacturers, like resistance to unifying onto a certain standard?

Mark: Not any.

Farbod: Or is the benefit of, like you're saying, getting more people interested in EVs and comfortable hopping from the ICE to the EV a big enough benefit that they don't mind it?

Mark: I would say they don't mind it for two reasons. The benefit, as you mentioned, but there's something maybe it's hard to find a lot of real technical and marketing reports on our Chinese competition, right? So, in China, they progress quite hugely, right? Huge advancements in EVs. And they kind of take the approach like Tesla does, where, okay, it's close, then then, oh, some, all right, so continuous improvements, right? Continuously upgrade pushing out things and then in terms of standards, they found I believe in the Chinese automotive industry that standards are great because they can buy a component and there's I don't know how many OEMs over there now 30 or 40, right? So, they can buy a component off the shelf that's cuts and plug it into this brand or that brand and so that type of standardization really helps them out too. And I think that's coming here to US and global car companies is they recognize that.

Farbod: Got it.

Daniel: Well, it's interesting, right? You mentioned a little bit earlier, I tried to pick your brain, how much of development is attributed toward innovation versus trying to keep up with regulatory pressure? And then you mentioned heavily toward regulation driven. But you also mentioned when the regulations and the standards an ecosystem that allows innovation to thrive, such as in China, right? We've seen a massive title wave of their speed of development and the quality of a product that they can put out with the technology that can be put out and at relatively competitive costs too. So, I don't know, Mark, are there any key linchpins you think in the outside of China or even inside the domestic U S automotive realm that need to be put into place that can allow, I don't wanna say this, but like another renaissance and automotive development in the US.

Mark: I would say part of the story also is the classical way that automotive OEMs and their internal ecosystem has developed, right? So, in Detroit, we have these big, huge global auto manufacturers and their supply base, right? There's a great company right up the street for me here, global supplier called Bosch and Bosch is very well known for high quality great engineering, great automotive engineering. They make dishwashers now, too. I don't know why but…

Farbod: It's a good dishwasher, I tell you that!

Mark: Yeah right, so but you know, that supplier has a huge ingrained presence in OEMs. And the OEMs, the car companies, depend on them to do most of their work, right? So, the innovation ideas they may have internally, but the work is usually done by an outside company and usually it has a global footprint. And usually, those big global companies don't move very fast, right? Versus in China, you know, a myriad of small companies, very innovative, try something out, and they have that mentality that tolerates risk. No disrespect to my friends at a company but, you know, very risk averse, because if you make a mistake, it'll cost you billions and millions of dollars. So, I think the answer to your question in this innovative space is we have to have a culture shift and that's hard to do. Small companies, large companies, industries, it's really hard to do.

Daniel: We need more engineers who have the courage to start their own business six years into their career.

Mark: Well, that's another story, but could be. Yeah.

Daniel: One more remark I've been thinking about. You've kind of talked about and name dropped a couple big automotive OEMs. I was taking a look at your website. You've got this awesome banner wall of all the different large companies you've worked with. I picked just a few. Toyota, Ford, Honda, GM, these are some of the largest automakers in the world. I assume their presence on your website as part of your portfolio of work means you've left some fingerprints on the products that they put out into the world. And there's a pretty high likelihood that if someone's listening to this podcast in the car, they're probably driving one of those cars to which you've helped have an impact on. I would love to hear from you. Do you have one or two standout moments or lessons you can share that you've learned from collaborating with these industry leaders?

Mark: Well, you know, part of the thing is personal friendships or personal communications. And I'll reflect back that into an earlier question, how do you make those connections or how do you get started? And LinkedIn is a good point, right, today and nowadays. But that's, you know, I want to know you guys. So, I'll be in DC next month. I'm going to come and see you all guys, right? And get to know people in that, in that communicative environment. So, I think the idea of getting into, from a small business, you know, we're a small business still and getting linked into some of these hard to reach, hard to connect with industry players, you have to know them and they have to know you. And it's more than just advertisement online, it's more than just, they're not gonna Google your company and say, oh, I wanna give them a million-dollar contract, right, they gotta know you. And so that would be my advice. And here's another part of things that maybe you could do is get involved in some of these technical standards, like the SAE standards I keep mentioning, or if there's other engineers, if you're a mechanical engineer, electrical engineer, there's IEEE Software Engineer, ACM. There's these professional organizations that, you know, my daughter's 22 years old, she's a software engineer. She said, dad, I don't need those. I've got, you know, I can just text people. It's like, yeah, you'll learn, you'll learn. So whatever technical organization that you might have a interest in and background, I would strongly support joining and becoming active, getting to know people, number one, and that's where the innovation comes out of because you see those trends. You see what people, what industries, what companies are trying to do, and you can be part of that. Just like OBD2, just like we started those years ago. We saw that, and here we are.

Daniel: Mark, this is a great point, because SAE International's one of the folks that helped sponsor our podcast, and they've sponsored this episode. And we appreciate the partnership we have with them. We've seen it firsthand. As a part of this conversation, we're having right now, SAE does a great job of connecting folks who are interested in learning about the future of mobility with the experts that are actually shaping the future of mobility, right? Or at the forefront, leaving their fingerprints on what the future might look like. I'm wondering if you could share a little bit, Mark, about kind of the importance of involvement in those industry groups, specifically SAE, and then also one of the things in particular that they've asked us to mention is the onboard diagnostic symposium in Europe. Could you give a little bit of a background on SAE and the OBD symposium in Europe and why someone might, someone who's listening to this podcast, I actually think about a lot of the folks in our demographics are folks who are early career engineers. Why would someone be interested in being involved in SAE international? Why would someone be interested in getting involved at the OBD symposium in Europe?

Mark: The OBD Symposium is a collection of worldwide technical experts coming together in this onboard diagnostic space. Its people like myself or team members that, for companies like mine, it's the OEMs, the people from China, all over the world come together in these symposiums and they work for about three days learning from each other about, hey, what are you doing there? You've got this technical challenge. Oh, this was written by a regulator in California. Will it be applicable to a European application or European regulation? How did you solve that problem? How did you go about communicating information back and forth to their regulatory bodies. And it's a learning experience. We have one in Europe. We also have one in the US that's held. The European one is a great venue. It's like cool places to visit, especially for Americans. So going there as a young engineer, I think you'll, if you're, you got to have that learning mentality. You got to have that openness and that exploratory, back in your mind, I want to try something new. I want to see if I can meet people. You got to have that outgoing opportunity. And so, what I would say, travel there, enjoy the travel, enjoy the venue, enjoy the trip. And have your company pay for it, and then meet people and learn and create those lifelong friendships. So, when I attended early on, I still have friends that I've met from, and they've all graduated, right? So, they've all gone up the ranks of engineers. A lot of them are directors, VPs at big global companies, and they're still good friends. Lots of great opportunities to network. Don't discount that.

Daniel: You've mentioned a couple times here, right? It was your personal network. It was your friend who helped you get your foot in the door at Intel to do some communication there. It's your friends who you've built friendships with at GM, Ford, Toyota, Honda, that have helped you get business there. I'd like to say that, you know, let me know if I'm drawing the incorrect parallel here, but being a part of an industry group, such as SAE International helped you build those friendships that forge that network that you were able to use to build your business and to make an impact in the automotive technology realm as a whole.

Mark: And making an impact if you really want to, right? So that's something that I really am passionate about, especially nowadays, right? You wanna give back, you wanna be part of something that's bigger than yourself, something that's bigger than just what I can do, and it's more than just money. So honestly, you've got a good opportunity there, folks. See if you can get yourself involved in the symposium at SAE or any SAE group or any other technical group that might be of interest to you. There's lots of benefits there for yourself and for or your community.

Farbod: Yeah, what I'm taking away from this is you know come for the great events and the great venues and stay for the lifelong friendships and connections.

Mark: I heard they have good beer over there, too. I don’t know.

Farbod: And good beer. That's really good advice, Mark. You know, it's really relevant to folks like Daniel and I, kind of like still early career. And some of our friends that I know would really appreciate this kind of feedback that are, you know, they have just graduated or about to graduate. So really appreciate your input on this. And honestly, this has been a great episode. I really appreciate all the insights you've been able to give us. Again, Daniel and I, we were brushing up on OBD and just hearing an insider give their take. One, very refreshing. Two, just learned a lot, so thanks for that.

Mark: OK, so when you come back, there's an 11-bit identifier that has the service code in it, the first byte of the data field. And then there's the, so I can give you all that, too, if you really want that.

Farbod: That's good to know. Thank you.

Daniel: Thank you, Mark. I guess one last thing before we wrap up. I've actually got two things for you. One thing, we try to encourage folks who are these experts in the industry to share their bold opinions, to share their unique insights. I'm wondering if you have any hot takes that we can encourage you to share, right? As someone who knows what's going on in the industry, what's kind of your counter-cultural opinion, maybe your unique perspective on tech that other people who aren't OBD experts are going to hear about every day.

Mark: Yeah, so it's really intriguing. We touched on it already with the regulation, the onboard diagnostics coming to electric vehicles. I mean, there's no spark plugs there. Why would you ever think? And then the regulators have the authority to, wait a minute. Last time I checked, the EV doesn't have any tailpipe emissions, right? So how can your California Air Resources Board regulate the emissions coming. So, there's another fashion that they've tried to connect with on OBD. So, I think that where we're going with that is probably going to wind up okay. I mentioned the charger connection and the diagnostics, but you also brought up earlier in the discussion about other IoTs or third-party applications because now you've got this data and the standard codes and the standard information, there could be innovators saying, well, wait a minute. I can make a widget out of this data and an app for my phone, and where would it lead? Is it a diagnostic tool, or is it something else that you can command and control remotely the car to do something? So, there's and then surrounding that is cyber security as well. So that's boy, that's a whole new depth of knowledge there because you got to let the good guys in and keep the bad guys out. And that's the future too.

Daniel: Awesome. Well, thank you. And the last thing I had, Mark, where can people find you on the internet? Where are folks listening to the podcast? What can we link in the show notes? How do you want anyone who's got questions or concerns or wants to reach Mark Z and get to know him, where can they find you?

Mark: Yeah, you can try me on LinkedIn, that's probably the best. The telephone in my office, I still have a landline, but don't call there because I never answer, nobody ever answers their landline. So, LinkedIn would be great and I'd be happy to help out seriously if you got any questions want to follow up, I'm really open to that, so I welcome any.

Daniel: I appreciate that. We will definitely be in touch and we will post a link to your LinkedIn profile in our show notes so that folks who are listening to this episode, if they're interested in reaching out, they know how to reach you.

Farbod: Perfect.

Mark: OK, guys, well, super talking to you there. I mean, I've been in Detroit all my life. One of the things I wanted to do is relocate. I never got out of town here, but I've been around and where you're at in DC, right? That's a great place to live. So, enjoy the weather there. We get another five to six inches of snow here tonight.

Farbod: Oh man. Well, if you ever want to relocate, let us know. We know all the good spots around here.

Mark: I know. Yeah. Okay. Thank you again.

Daniel: Cheers. Bye.

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The Next Byte: We're two engineers on a mission to simplify complex science & technology, making it easy to understand. In each episode of our show, we dive into world-changing tech (such as AI, robotics, 3D printing, IoT, & much more), all while keeping it entertaining & engaging along the way.